Episode 21: A Store Full of Stories: The Distinctive Approach at Cave & Post Trading Company
In this episode, Terresa Zimmerman talks with Patrick Burch about the journey of creating Cave & Post Trading Co., a men's-focused retail store in Phoenix. Patrick explains how he and his wife Mary transformed what was meant to be a "glorified man cave" into a thriving retail business that bridges the gap in men's boutique shopping.
The conversation explores how Cave & Post selects inventory with a focus on heritage brands, quality craftsmanship, and products with compelling stories. Patrick shares how they've created a welcoming "Cheers bar" atmosphere where customers are remembered by name, and he discusses their vision of inspiring men to live well-rounded lives beyond just looking good.
Patrick offers candid insights about the financial challenges of marketing a modern retail business, particularly the complexities of managing digital ad spend across multiple platforms. He also discusses emerging retail trends, including the continued popularity of Western wear, growing interest in American-made products, and consumers' increasing preference for quality over fast fashion.
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509 W McDowell Rd., Suite 102 Phoenix, AZ 85003
https://www.instagram.com/caveandpost/
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rFull Transcript:
Patrick Burch:
You could, in today's world, create strictly a brick and mortar that dabbles online. But if you want to grow and be successful, more than just, hey, this is a hobby, but I actually want to build something that's successful and maybe worth some money at some point, you have to spend money to grow. I used to be critical when I'd hear about, oh my gosh, that tech company's worth $10 billion, but it's losing $3 billion a year. And you're like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Now I totally understand.
SPEAKER_01:
This episode of Main Street Matters is brought to you by Wood Underwear, Marquesi Jin Fratti Neckwear, and Inspiro Tequila. I'm your host, Terresa Zimmerman.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Welcome to Main Street Matters. We are coming to you with Patrick Birch, co-owner with his wife, Mary, of Cave & Post Trading Company out of Phoenix, Arizona. Welcome this morning, Patrick. Thank you for joining us.
Patrick Burch:
Thank you for having me.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Tell us about Cave & Post. I'm already in love. I've been all over your website and there's so many interesting things on it.
Patrick Burch:
So yeah, I mean, we basically started the store. It was a bit of a something that we wanted to do. We had a kid's store when our children were young. We have five kids and we had a kid's store that kind of was closed down during the Great Recession in 08-09. And afterwards, we loved retail. My mom has a retail store, has had one for 30 years or so. And we just always have loved retail, wanted to get back into it at some point, and planned on doing a men's focused store because we thought there was a big hole in that market, which I still think there is. As far as women's boutiques go, there's tons of them. And men's stores, there's very few. So we found that when we were traveling, If you looked up good men's shops, first of all, they are very few and far between. But secondly, they usually were in a cool part of town, had good coffee shops and breweries and restaurants around them. And so it was just something we thought we wanted to do at some point in the future. So there's a story behind how we got it going sooner than maybe we planned to. But yeah, that was the kind of the impetus behind it.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah, well, tell us what do you mean getting it started sooner? Most people run late opening things.
Patrick Burch:
Well, you know, I think we thought maybe we would do it a little bit later in life. I mean, our youngest is 18 now, so it would have been at some point fairly soon. But I think we thought maybe get the kids out of the house, maybe, you know, at least close to done with college and that kind of stuff. And then maybe you're kind of leaning towards a slower time in your life and maybe you start it then. Well, one of our sons is a welder and we thought, you know, we wanted to try to buy kind of a warehouse-y type building to maybe put his welding equipment. I could put some tools. We have a boat. We were thinking like, we'll just make like a glorified man cave basically. And so we found this building that was a perfect kind of center of town and it had a little house, historic house in the front of it. And so we're like, Hey, let's buy this building and do the man cave thing in it. And we'll just lease out the front for, for helping pay the bills basically. And while we were in escrow on it, we were like, wait a second, why don't we just do the men's store now in the house in the front? So it was kind of a mad rush to, okay, let's do it. Um, you know, we closed on the building a month later and then just rushed to, to start, get open, start buying stuff. It was kind of crazy, but yeah, that's sort of the emphasis. So the name itself comes from, you know, man cave and trading post, which, Happened to be hey, we need an LLC name in the last week that we are buying We're like we should probably buy it in an entity not our personal names It's a smart thing to do in real estate, right? And I said, I just thought of it and said to my wife. Let me just do cave and post LLC. It's easy to say Nobody owns it the websites available. Maybe it'll be the main name. Maybe not but let's just placeholder it and Everybody started saying I like that as the name so just keep it. So that's what we did. I
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah, well, so the fixtures that I've seen in some of your pictures, lots of industrial look, your son and the welding part of that, was that influencing that?
Patrick Burch:
He has done some stuff for us. At the time when we really got going on the store, he was a little bit green in that regard or new. And so he's done some stuff, but I mean, it's really my wife and her amazing ability to make a house look awesome or make a merchandising list awesome. So we've just kind of picked up antiques. You know, it's funny when we have vendors who, for example, especially smaller stuff, sunglasses or wallets or, or, you know, perfume and stuff like that. A lot of times they have fixtures that they say, Hey, or hats, for example, do you want us to send you fixtures, you know, that has our branding and that kind of stuff. And we're usually like, no, that's okay. It doesn't look really fit in our store. So we really don't have. We have a really maybe one or two items that are store retail pictures. Everything else is just collected. you know, antiques. And we thought when we opened the store that everything would be for sale, including fixtures and art and all that kind of stuff. Because if you walk around our store, you'll see we have guitars on the walls or vintage collectible guitars. So when we started the store, we thought everything would be for sale, you know, anything that you might inspire a guy in his, quote, man cave. Now, we've morphed, definitely now we have women's stuff in the store, but it's probably about 30% of the shot, but, you know, so, you know, we sell cool vintage hats, vintage boots, we have guitars on the walls, you know, and it's kind of like that whole idea of, and we can talk about this later, but sort of inspiring, guys to be more well-rounded. We've noticed with our kids, you know, there's, the kids are getting more and more less well-rounded, if that makes sense. Whether it be focusing one direction on sports, one specific sport, or whether it be just playing too many video games or getting lost in their phones for hours at a time. You know, and so we say, hey, try to be more well-rounded, stop living your life through what you look at other people and try to like live your life where you're learning things and doing things and traveling. And so playing guitar, for example, like all of our kids play some kind of musical instrument and they, we get together and we sing and we hang out and it's not like Von Trapp family singing or something like that, but we like to like do stuff like that, but it's the same kind of idea. So we try to inspire that with our shop, you know, with everybody should have a guitar in their house. Somebody's going to come over and want to pick it up and play or have cool art or buy some cool things to like make your place interesting. Coffee table books, stuff like that. So it's a, it's a lot bigger idea than just a retail store, if that makes sense.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah, no, it sounds fabulous. And it's amazing to me how many people I speak with that have guitars in their stores, you know, for various reasons. I love that you're talking about being a well-rounded person and, you know, diversifying. Some of it is, you know, just they're passionate. They wanted to grow up and be a rock star. And so there's guitars. So there's a lot of really fun reasons to have musical instruments in your store. But I want to back up just a little bit. You guys decided to do a men's store and then we just jumped right into you having this full service offering. How did you do that? I mean, how did you do your buying? How did you jump into it? Where'd you do your research?
Patrick Burch:
It was kind of around COVID time. So when we got started, or at least, you know, that was going on, it was in 21 when we really opened. So it was kind of a tail end of COVID, but still, you know, some of the, the, you know, the lingering effects of COVID. So, um, Because of that, a lot of markets weren't going on or the ones that we, I mean, I remember going to one and it was really not good. It was really quiet. And so it was a lot of the stuff that we buy. You know, we kind of just find, I mean, the algorithms do a great job of like suggesting things, but I mean, you look around, you know, some of the stuff that we've followed over time, you know, have great things. And so they are inspiring to, Oh, I loved that brand. Let's look that guy up. Surprisingly, it was very easy to get. brands that we wanted because you know typically smaller brands don't want to sell to every boutique on the block because they don't want to compete against each other. They try to quote protect their their retailers to some extent. In the men's world it was like Everybody we called, I mean, not everybody, but the lion's share of people we called said, we would love to have somebody in Phoenix. I mean, we're the fourth or fifth largest city in the country and so many people would go, we don't have anybody who's carrying us there. I mean, even brands like Filson, for example, I don't know if you know Filson, but they've been around since 1897. You know, they're a huge brand. No, we don't have anybody in Arizona, they told us at the time when we started. So it was we were very much welcome and which is great, too, because then they don't expect you to buy huge out of the gate. They want you to grow with them and all of that kind of stuff. So it was a lot of research just. from stuff we already loved, reaching out to brands, that kind of stuff. Now, some brands like Double RL, and we can talk about that in a bit, was very difficult to get. And we worked really hard to get it. But for the most part, they were all like, we'd love to have somebody in Phoenix. We don't have anybody in Phoenix. And so we just reach out. Most people have a wholesale link on their site if they do wholesale. Um, and there's great, the wholesale sites to like new order and fair and all these kinds of, they do a great job of kind of steering you in the right direction. So, you know, you read magazines, you're on, you know, on Instagram, you're on, you know, there's so many different ways to discover great brands now.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah. Well, that's that's fabulous. So you were able to just fill out your store pretty quickly then.
Patrick Burch:
Yes. And then there are, you know, now we do go to market twice a year, you know, and so that's a secondary way. A lot of brands that we have, you go to market, it makes it easier to do your buying and that kind of stuff. So we historically were only going to Chicago. Chicago Collective is the best men's market in the country. But now we do go to New York because we kind of have to for Double RL, and it's usually during market week, so we will go to some of those markets as well. But yeah, it used to be where everything was market, market, market when you bought for a store, and now you can do a lot online. But we do kind of do a combination of both.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Well, sometimes you want to get your hands on some things, you know.
Patrick Burch:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, sometimes you don't want to go to, like, we don't go to gift markets, for example, because it's so overwhelming. And it's like, you know, there's a thousand books and a thousand leather goods and a thousand, you know, fragrances and candles and all that kind of stuff. And so that kind of stuff, we feel like we've honed in on the stuff that we love and we continue to, to enhance that collection. Um, but we don't usually go to those kinds of markets, but you know, you can't do them all, especially with five kids.
Terresa Zimmerman:
So those are crazy because there's so many shiny lights, so to speak. It's like, oh my gosh, you know, it's like, yes, I want this and this and this and this and this and can't live without any of it. So that's fabulous. So how do you find new things? I mean, I know online shopping, fair new order, all those things make it easy when you kind of know the categories you're interested in or kind of know the direction. But how do you pick up new stuff? So how do you make sure that you're fresh? I realize you're new, so all your things are fresh, but you gotta look at that.
Patrick Burch:
Right. So, I mean, we are constantly, my wife jokes and says that like, I never, my brain never stops. And, and, you know, she's constantly looking at stuff. So, I mean, most of the brands that we carry, we, we call them, most of them are small batch brands. So they come out with new things every season. Um, so we're obviously going through the new lines and, and buying and refreshing the store. That's the number one way to do it. is by just getting new season in each, you know, Phoenix is weird cause it's so hot here. And so we really don't have spring, summer, fall, winter. We really just have spring, summer and fall winter. And those, you know, so we have two big times of the year where we have a lot of stuff come in to the shop, you know, as it, you know, as it pertains to, you know, outside of new apparel seasons, we're always looking, um, kind of just looking around, seeing stuff, notice stuff when you're, I mean, I read tons of articles a lot of times, whether it be with my, this is not my normal job, but I mean my, I have two normal jobs. I do real estate, but I'm constantly reading and trying to educate myself with what's going on in the market. But the same thing, applies with the retail world. So I'll hear, Oh my gosh, like, for example, I heard there's going to be this new cool Wrangler vintage Wrangler book, for example. And we figured out how to get it. I think we were the only ones in the United States who had it. Cause it was coming out of Japan and it was wild the response, but it's like, you know, we sold 30 of them and they're not cheap. Um, You know, but people, I mean, and we sold them to like, I noticed the names of the people who were buying them. I mean, there were some big names of people who were buying them, but we're constantly looking for new things just by roaming around in the world, I guess, basically, whether it be Instagram, I mean, my wife will be in a shop and she'll say, hey, have you, you know, she'll notice something and say, have you heard of this maker? Or have you heard of this fragrance brand? Or have you heard of this? I mean, everybody imitates each other to some extent, and you're always trying to be cutting edge. But I mean, you're not the first really of anything. And so you'll notice she'll be in California visiting somebody or New York. We have to go back there and we'll notice, oh, that was an incredible book that we saw in this random little shop. So we'll dig in and then you find out, oh my gosh, they have 10 other awesome ones. So it's just always kind of moving around and looking and being observant. And then obviously I think. freshening up your store and moving it around is critical and you know people come into our store and comment all the time and i'm not bragging because it's my wife but they're like oh my gosh this is such an amazing shop and a lot of it is merchandising it really is an art i mean it is in I can't do it. I mean, we laugh and say at the store, stay in your lane. Don't try to do that. Mary's great at that. And you're great at this. And like, I mean, I could work on a table for an hour and she'll come in and like change two things in like 10 seconds. And you're like, oh my gosh, it looks so much better. There's actually ASU, one of the biggest universities in the country is in Arizona, and they have a sister campus downtown Phoenix, which is right by where we're at. I think they have 15,000 kids down there now, but their retail and merch, I don't even know what the actual you know, major would be called, but they're merchandising as one of their classes, and she sends her students into our shop to take pictures.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Oh, wow, cool.
Patrick Burch:
Which is definitely a compliment, I think, so.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Definitely, definitely. Well, there's so many things I want to ask you about what you just said, but first, tell us who your customer is, because that's going to lead to a lot of my questions. Who do you serve? And then, you know, how did they start finding you?
Patrick Burch:
I mean, so we're probably 45% online now and 55% in shop, which, you know, that's, I think pretty darn good for a small shop, but you pay for it. I mean, your Google adding and all of that kind of stuff. So our online. there's a bunch of different ways to go after that customer. It's not nearly as interesting, but it's definitely worth talking about. But, you know, in the store, it's, you know, word of mouth. People, a lot of times say, I saw you on Instagram. Um, and I think a lot of that is again, the algorithms finding them they're searching for heritage brands or vintage style or rugged style. I don't know what they search or what they follow, but you get, suggested follow this guy or whatever. So a lot of times people say they saw us on Instagram, you know, in because there's not a billion men's stores, you know, if you're in Pennsylvania, and you happen to follow the a men's store there and then you follow one that's in California and then one in New York. We're going to come up in your feed at some point, I assume. And then when they come visit Phoenix, which everybody does between October and April, you know, they say, I've been wanting to come into your shop for a long time. So, you know, it just randomly and then, you know, just locally, we have people come in. I mean, there's not a lot of men's stores and the ones that existed in the past were suiting shops, which COVID had a major effect on the way people dress. And so they find us that way by just searching men's stores. And then we kind of have always prided ourselves on being a cheers bar of a shop. We like to know our customers' names. We tell them, come in. There's no pressure here. Stop in and say hi. You don't need to buy anything. We just like seeing people. And so we've grown that. I mean, if you look at our Google reviews, people talk about customer service and just friendliness and, you know, I think sales. First and foremost is, is getting to know somebody and getting them to like you on a personal level. And we just like people. I mean, if that aspect didn't exist, like I know there's stores out there, they're a hundred percent online. I don't think we would enjoy it as, you know, not nearly as much. We love talking to people. We love. telling each other about our customers and the interactions and who we met and all that kind of stuff.
Terresa Zimmerman:
It's the best. It's the best. Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick Burch:
To go back to the guitars on the walls too, we have a huge music love. So we invite musicians in all the time. You know, we throw out invites. You never know if they're going to read them, but we've had tons of musicians come in. I think there's a huge history has shown that like musicians push style, they influence style. And kind of the singer songwriter is huge right now with Zach Bryan and Tyler Childers and, you know, different guys like that with a country western sort of vibe as well. So I mean, Tyler Childers has been in the store and and, you know, all kinds of different people. Bruce Springsteen came in the shop. That was random. Super lucky. He just decided to come in. But You know, we love meeting. I always reach out to these people and I said, you know, we just love meeting cool people who are doing things that we think are awesome. So, you know, it's you know, there's a huge kind of crossover there as well as customer service, but also relationships.
Terresa Zimmerman:
That's that's amazing. So what's your biggest challenge? What's the what's the thing that keeps you up at night for the store?
Patrick Burch:
When you're trying to be successful in retail in a world that is dominated by online, but still trying to do brick and mortar, you have to spend money on being successful online. I mean, I suppose you could in today's world create strictly a brick and mortar that dabbles online. But if you want to grow, and be successful, um, more than just, Hey, this is a hobby, but I actually want to build something that's, you know, successful and maybe, you know, worth some money at some point. Um, you have to spend money to grow. I used to laugh and hear, you know, when I'd hear about. Or be critical. And I'd hear about, Oh my gosh, that tech company's worth $10 billion, but it's losing $3 billion a year. And you're like, how that doesn't make any sense to me. Now I totally understand because you have to keep feeding, you know, and keep spending money to kind of grow. So instead of traditional customer acquisition costs. you are spending money on Google ads. So if somebody searches Shinola watch, we come up at least somewhere close to the top and that's not cheap. And then they come and find us, but then we make a sale as well as acquire a customer. And so that's what keeps me up at night because I need to somehow figure out how to pay for it, how to grow. I mean, we're not raising money in a, tech company who, you know, it's a smaller venture, but, you know, it's not easy. But if you want to, you know, do something better than just a normal everyday brick and mortar, then you got to do it. So, and there's so many different ways that you're told you need to spend money, whether it be Yelp or Google ads or Instagram, Facebook, affiliate marketing, you know, it's on and on and on and on.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah. Well, and everybody's coming at you with their hands out too. It's phenomenal to me how many agency tykes I've talked to and the way they make money is spending more of your money. You got to spend time weeding through all of that.
Patrick Burch:
Yeah. And we, I do, you know, because we kind of dug in really hard, I, you know, people ask me a lot about that and I'm like, One of the biggest challenges is to navigate that, to figure out where I can best spend that money. It's like you can spend $10,000 a month in a blink of an eye and have no idea if you're throwing it in the right direction. And like you said, agencies, I'd say my guess is nine out of 10 of them really don't have your best interest in mind. They really, I mean, obviously if you blow up, it's great for them. You're going to spend more money. But at the most part, they have a sales guy who's come in trying to land the deal and then they're doing what they're doing for every one of their other clients. We actually have a local company who we've used from the beginning. I know them personally. They seem to be doing a really good job and I'm really happy with them, but it's not cheap. No. So, I mean, that's the biggest challenge. Where do you spend the money appropriately? I mean, the good thing is in today's world, you can track the success of that money for the most part. But I mean, here's a good example. Yelp calls me the other day and they're like, Hey, we're looking at your thing. And I'm like, I didn't remember that I paid any money to Yelp, to be honest. It shows you that we're not the most financially on the ball all the time. And they're like, your budget is this. We think there's tons of people coming in town for spring training. Why don't we raise your budget up for two weeks or for a week and see how it does. And then we'll have a phone call in a week and discuss it. Well, somehow that phone call didn't happen. And all of a sudden I'm spending. $1,000 with Yelp. And I see that bill the next month and I'm like, oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that. And you're like, are people really using Yelp? I mean, I think they are. Probably more for restaurants than anything, but it's just a good example of, do I need to spend any money with Yelp? Do I need to spend, you know, should I be taking that money and spending it with Instagram or even Google Maps? Or you just don't totally know. It's a very big challenge.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, you know, Yelp, I think they're locally based there with you, aren't they? Aren't they Arizona company?
Patrick Burch:
They might be, they might be.
Terresa Zimmerman:
I mean, I've always found them a, you know, pay to play, you know, if you don't pay them, then all of a sudden you have all kinds of negative reviews. And so I've never, I haven't found them credible in my personal experience with them, but yeah, that's, it is crazy because if you forget that you're doing a short run promo and you haven't fixed the end date on it, it's like, oh my gosh, big story.
Patrick Burch:
Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. What do you love most about having this store?
Patrick Burch:
My other job is real estate. I sell commercial real estate. When the Great Recession happened and all of commercial real estate died, me and a business partner of mine started flipping houses. What I realized is I loved the creative aspect of that. Um, you know, we did everything from the buying of the house to the picking out of the faucets and doing, you know, the flooring and trying to stay cutting edge within a budget and doing cool stuff. So. When I got back into brokerage, commercial brokerage, I realized I really need a creative outlet. Um, and the store is that, um, we love music. We love, you know, antiques and interior design. I say we, cause it's my wife and I've been married. Almost 30 years, 20 years. Why? you know, we love a lot of stuff that's creative, you know, like I've loved hats since I was a little kid and hats are very popular right now, but it's like, there's a way to be creative with them, to do your own thing with them or to customize them and that kind of stuff. So like just finding cool stuff and bringing them into your lives and showing them to other people, you know, and that creative aspect is awesome. That's my favorite thing for sure. And I also love doing it with, you know, as you get older, I think I've noticed it seems like, you know, married couples can kind of do their own thing to some extent. You know, a guy will go golf and she'll do something and they seem to maybe spread apart a little bit. And, you know, it's a way for us to to have something to do together. I mean, when we go to market, we go together and it's fun. Like we you know, you go to New York and yes, you're working and you're super tired at the end of the day, but you still do fun stuff and see cool cities. And that's like a great part of it as well.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Oh, that's great. Well, so beyond you and your wife, I mean, have your kids gotten into it? You mentioned the one who's the welder, but any of your kids gotten into this?
Patrick Burch:
Yes. I mean, the three youngest, so we have five kids. My daughter is right in the middle, and then there's two boys on each side. The two youngest boys and my daughter have all worked at the store. My second youngest, Luke, he's probably been the most involved. He loves everything about it and he gets into it and he does some quote modeling for us. He'll try stuff on and, you know, do stuff. So, but yeah, they all are interested in it and have fun with it. I don't think, you know, they're going to make a career out of it or anything like that, but yeah, it's definitely a family affair for sure. I mean, Luke has gone to market with us before all of our vendors know him. George, our youngest, has been in school and kind of a boarding school, so he hasn't had the ability to do that, but he would probably enjoy it. You know, as he gets into college, he'll probably go with us here and there. We like doing stuff. I mean, all of our travel is pretty much twofold. It's either to visit our kids or to go to market, which is all fun, so.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Right, right. Yeah, not a bad thing to have to do, combining business and family. Love it.
Patrick Burch:
Right, for sure.
Terresa Zimmerman:
So I was on your website even just this morning and found your journal page titled Journal. There are some seriously cool things on there. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Patrick Burch:
Yeah, we try and I probably need to update it because we actually send out really cool articles in our probably weekly email. I don't want to overdo it. So we probably send an email out once a week and we link articles in there and I probably need to move them over to that journal. But when we started the store, I had mentioned the name Cave and Post was sort of man cave trading post. The post word was more than just a place to sell. Historically, I think the word post kind of has been used for anybody who's trying to share cool or interesting information for other people. So whether it be a magazine was a post or newspapers, the New York post or whatever, Washington post, I mean, they all use that term was a way for people to get information or share cool stuff or interesting stuff. And then trading posts was a way to. share things to buy. We have good stuff here. Come get it from us. And so when we created the shop, I wanted to eventually create content that was shared. So interesting articles, um, videos, um, where to go, you know, music to see how to play the guitar. I mean, you can learn four chords on the guitar and play 10,000 songs. It's really not as complicated as people think. You know, learn how to grill a little bit, learn how to cook a little bit, learn a little bit about vintage clothing, the history of certain things. I mean, clothing has such cool history. Like there's so many cool stories about where different things came from. how they were created and it's just very interesting stuff. So the post aspect is, is growing and morphing, but it's supposed to be, uh, you know, a cool place to get content. Cave and post, you know, eventually wants to have a lot of content. almost like a digital magazine, but inside there, there's stuff to buy as well. So if you see somebody cool in an article or some content, Oh, what is he wearing? I mean, that happens all the time. What's that guy in that, that movie wearing? Um, where do I find it? I mean, we sell things that the guys on Yellowstone wear and they sell like crazy. Cause it's, Oh, that's Casey Dutton's jacket. Like where do I find that? and provide it in our shop. So there's ways to use it as a sales tactic as well, but it's more about bringing people to our spot because there's cool information.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah. Yeah. I think Yellowstone has brought back bolo ties and bandanas all by themselves.
Patrick Burch:
It is wild. I mean, that Western style has not died down. Yeah. And, you know, We get a lot of people come in and say, hey, we're having a charity auction. Can you donate? And well, what's the theme? I mean, I'm not kidding. The last three years, every single one of them has been some form of Western style, you know, Yellowstone theme or Western chic or, you know, it's on and on and on and on.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Well, you're in a good market for that anyway. I mean, being in the West and, you know, being in a more traditional Western apparel country anyway, right?
Patrick Burch:
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, we're in, you know, definitely a place where there's, you know, you can get on the outskirts of town and there's horses and, you know, you can go up to Wickenburg, which is one of the oldest rodeos in Prescott. Same thing. And it's very cool. Yeah.
Terresa Zimmerman:
No, I have a family that snowbirds down between Phoenix and Wickenburg, bring their horses, bring their cattle and team roping all day, every day for the, as their snowbird. Yeah.
Patrick Burch:
Well, and it's funny too, because we try to preach that you don't have to be a cowboy to dress Western. There's nothing wrong. I mean, I'll wear a pair of boots to the office and it's not like guys are, I mean, maybe 10 years ago, they'd go, what are you going to rodeo today or what? But now it's like very accepted. Like, I mean, I'm wearing a snap shirt today, um, you know, and it's just cause that's part of my daily, what, you know, you wear. So we try to try to tell guys that like, Like expand your style, like, uh, you know, branch out a bit, just wear something, put it on and own it. And just because you want to wear a pair of cowboy boots doesn't mean you need to know how to rope. I mean, it's actually a good look.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Oh my gosh, well, and once you put on a nice pair of cowboy boots, you understand how comfortable they are. I mean, there's some good stuff on there, right?
Patrick Burch:
For sure, for sure.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah. So I wanna talk a little bit about trends. What are you seeing in the future, two, three, five years? I mean, you've only been around for a few years, so maybe the time horizon's a little bit shorter, but what are you seeing and how are you preparing for it?
Patrick Burch:
So I think there's a few things I would say we are seeing in trends. I mean, obviously, Western, like we just said, is a continual trend. And I think it's going to continue to grow. And therefore, denim is going to continue to be a big thing. Vintage style is continuing to grow and I think is very cool. But as it pertains to those things, I think one of the things that we're seeing And it's interesting with all of the tariffs and all of that kind of stuff going on is there's two fold. One is. There's a push for less fast fashion, more buy quality, buy stuff that lasts. Don't throw it in the landfill after six months because it wore out because you washed it three times. So buying quality that lasts and then a push for American made. You know, those are trends that I think you're not going to see that on the runways. You know what I mean? You're not going to see it in the big fashion magazines. But on the day to day when you talk to people, There's definitely a sentiment of let's try to support local, support American-made if you can, you know, buy stuff that's, and usually American-made stuff is really good quality. It's not cheap to make. So most of the people who are spending the time to do American-made are making quality. So, you know, and you have quality controls easier when it's in your backyard. So I think those are trends that we're seeing and I'm hoping they continue because I think it's a good thing. We talk to guys, they'll come in and go, oh my gosh, $280 for a pair of jeans. And you're like, yeah, but they'll last you forever. And they'll wear in and mold to your body and be like your favorite jeans you've ever bought. And maybe you only need two or three pairs for your life or whatever, at least for the next 10 years. going and buying a pair that's going to wear out in a year and a half, and then you have to go buy another one. And, you know, great, they were $70 or $60, but if you have to buy a new pair every year, then maybe it's worth investing. So, you know, quality and kind of local American made, I think is a trend for sure.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Get out your, get out your calculators. I mean, you've, if you flip real estate, you've got all the amortization tables and start amortizing their jeans for them and they'll be shocked how, how price.
Patrick Burch:
Yeah.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah.
Patrick Burch:
Yeah.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Right.
Patrick Burch:
Yeah, for sure. And then we do have customers who come in who, you know, say I've never bought and a quote, expensive pair of jeans before, but I'm sick of my other jeans wearing out every year. So I think I'm going to take the plunge and do it. And once you do it, like, it's kind of like you never go back kind of thing. Once you wear quality, it's kind of the old way that people would say, like when, when suiting and dressing up was more of the thing they'd say, once you wear a custom suit, you'll never go back. And you're like, yeah, but it's so expensive. Well, try it. and you know you do it. It's very similar with once you put on some quality and I'm not saying just because the price tag is lower it doesn't mean it's quality. I mean we obviously have some lower price points but you know there's definitely a difference for sure.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah, no, there is. And if you can talk that quality and have that value conversation versus price conversation, that makes a difference to people. Yeah, for sure. So do you serve that more value conscious market? I mean, it sounds like you've got a full range of really expensive stuff.
Patrick Burch:
We do. I mean, we're definitely on the higher end, I would say. I mean, we have the whole gamut. So, you know, we do have, I don't know, I'd say 30% of our apparel is probably on the lower to mid, not lower end, but mid range, you know, stuff that's imported, made overseas. Um, and then we go up from there. So, you know, do we have any shirts that are 1999? No. Um, but we have some really good quality, cool stuff. That's, you know, in that 50, 60, $70 range, I think. And then we go up from there. And so, but we, we definitely are known to be a more higher end store, but like, like, again, we try to talk to people about quality versus. designer or expensive. We really don't have any, quote, designer brands. We sell Double RL, which is Ralph Lauren's kind of baby. It's his pet project that he started, I think, in the late, early 90s. And it's very expensive. But it's the coolest stuff you've ever seen. And people see it and they'll be like, why did you ever show this to me? And his stuff isn't made in America. But it's just very great fabrics, great design elements, vintage-inspired or Western-inspired. But yes, we're definitely on the higher end for sure.
Terresa Zimmerman:
It sounds like you're just having so much fun.
Patrick Burch:
Yeah, I mean, well, it's stressful. But yes, yes.
Terresa Zimmerman:
I don't know how to, you know, judge that. Can you take stress out of fun? Maybe. I don't know what that is.
Patrick Burch:
I don't either. You know, I mean, no, I mean, we're yes, we do have fun for sure. Another aspect of what we carry to continue to talk and you're not asking questions. So sorry for that.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Tell me.
Patrick Burch:
But I mean, we do sell a lot of stuff with we try to get brands that have a story. So You know, we have one main sunglasses brand, for example, and it's American Optical. They were founded in 1833. They were the very first, the original aviator sunglass. And everybody thinks, oh, that was probably Ray-Ban. Well, no, it wasn't. They were making them for the military and they are JFK's, like his iconic black wayfarer looking glasses are American optical, not Ray-Bans. So, Malcolm X's glasses were American optical, like so many cool things like that, that have great stories. We sell this brand of hood shoes, which were, they look like Converse, but they really were They were one of the companies who sold patents to Converse. And so like these stories, like we like tell our, our employees, which we don't have a lot, they learn about this stuff and they kind of get excited about it. And then you have a customer come in, you go, Oh, let me tell you about this. I mean, you sell Red Wing boots. They're made in Red Wing, uh, Minnesota and have been since the beginning. And there's just like. It's cool information and you kind of geek out on this stuff to some extent. So, you know, we continue to try to grab brands with stories, if that makes sense.
Terresa Zimmerman:
No, it does completely. And then how I mean, how good are you about conveying that to your customers? Are your customers interested in that?
Patrick Burch:
A lot of the customers are. I mean, it's funny, not all of them are, but you can kind of sense it out. But, you know, we are one of the few people, when we started, we were the only ones to sell raw denim, raw or salvaged denim in all of Arizona. I think now there's a couple more. But guys who get into, I mean, we joke around and call them denim geeks. They are into it. They, they know everything about it. They know about the weaves and about the weights, you know, the ounces of the, you know, and how they're going to wear in and the fades and all of this stuff. And so a lot of our customers who seek us out because of certain brands or because of raw denim or because of that kind of stuff, they are absolutely interested in all of this other stuff, you know, all of these stories and, and, you know, they're into their fashion. Um, you know, it's, It's you wouldn't look at a guy and go, oh, he's into his fashion because you typically think runway type or like flashy. No, it's more of a vintage work where kind of traditional heritage brand style.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah. And all your employees can get into this, too. I mean, clearly you need them to convey the story. So, I mean, is there something they do?
Patrick Burch:
I mean, first of all, we have hardly any employees. It's me, my wife, the kids show up here and there. And then one of our good friends we've known since she's been a kid is our main manager. And then we have one other guy who's technically not family, and he's fantastic. And I literally can say, hey, Gabe, we're getting this new brand, learn about it. And he gets excited and he'll teach me about it. I'll be like, hey, Tell me what you can find out. And so he's very into it too. So we probably would never hire anybody who we didn't think was kind of interested in learning that stuff. And we're not expecting them to be an encyclopedia about it. We just want them to kind of get excited about it the way we do.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Right. Well, especially if you've got customers that are really aficionados. I mean, some of those people, you can't know more than. So you just have to- Oh, absolutely.
Patrick Burch:
I feel dumb a lot of times.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Come in and teach us.
Patrick Burch:
Yeah. I've actually thought about doing that, about having kind of a denim forum or like, Hey, we're going to have a coffee once every couple months where we invite all the people in town who like to talk about this stuff and just get together and. Hey, have you found any new brands? What do you, you know, tell us about stores you've seen or you just, they, they love talking about it. Because it's not, there's not a ton of, especially not in America, you know, it's funny, like overseas it's bigger. Japan, it's huge. I mean, a lot of the denim, and that's a whole nother story, but, you know, a lot of the good denim, if it's American made, they're still buying their fabric from Japan. So, you know, overseas in Europe has some great shops and they're very into American sort of inspired vintage work wear fashion.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Oh, well, I'm sitting here in Raleigh, North Carolina, and maybe you know of Raleigh Denim, but they might be one of the ones that you look into, so.
Patrick Burch:
Yeah, North Carolina has a huge history of textiles and that kind of stuff. So I think, is Vidalia Mills in North Carolina? Do you know anything about?
Terresa Zimmerman:
Maybe, I don't know about them, though.
Patrick Burch:
There's one of the last sort of vintage, sort of the last denim mills that I think has actually gone out of business, unfortunately, but I thought it was in North Carolina, but yeah.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah, it could be. I mean, they do still make some stuff here, for sure. Absolutely. So we're running out of time here, and I do have one more question, but is there anything that we haven't covered off that you want to make sure that we convey to people?
Patrick Burch:
I don't think so. I mean, I probably will think about stuff the second you shut down or whatever. I mean, obviously, go to our website, caveandpost.com, go to our Instagram, Cave and Post. You know, our Instagram is interesting because sometimes people like my wife will say, maybe we should be more professional and more streamlined about our Instagram. But then we hear so many people say, we love your Instagram because it's not necessarily like that. You know, one day it'll be me talking about something another day, it'll be a stock photo of new stuff we got in and then it'll be a music suggest listing suggesting about where to go with music. So it's kind of all over the place. So it's it's a good follow, I guess.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Yeah, I mean, I just hear authentic matters. So, you know, if you're putting stuff out there that's authentic in the moment, I'm told that's a good thing, so.
Patrick Burch:
For sure.
Terresa Zimmerman:
All right, well, my last question, this is a question I ask everybody, and it is, why does Main Street matter? And of course, when I say Main Street, I mean independent retail. Why does Main Street matter?
Patrick Burch:
I think there's always gonna be a love of supporting local, getting to know your people and sort of that cheers bar vibe. And when it comes to fashion, I don't ever think there'll ever be a time when people don't wanna touch, feel, try on stuff and just be a part of that experience. And so, supporting local where you can and supporting independent retailers where you can, allows that to exist for people. I think if you don't have little independent retailers, and granted we're all trying to be a little bit bigger at times, you're trying to grow and stay in business, but there's nothing like coming into your local shop and going to the coffee shop next door and saying hi to the people that you know and feeling like you know, you have somewhere where they have, almost like they have their best, your best interest in mind too. You know, guys will come in and say, I need something quick for a birthday gift. And they know you're going to give them good advice and you're not just trying to sell them something. So you can't get that online. You can't get that from big, you know, big, huge companies and that kind of stuff. So I think it just maintains a level of humanity to the world of consuming, if that makes sense.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Does all those relationships and community building counts a lot? That's what I love too.
Patrick Burch:
Absolutely.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Thank you so much, Patrick. I so appreciate you jumping on this episode with us and can't wait for everybody to hear it.
Patrick Burch:
Yeah, thank you so much for having me and if you're ever out in the Phoenix area, stop by and say hi.
Terresa Zimmerman:
Awesome. Thanks. Thank you for tuning in to Main Street Matters.
SPEAKER_01:
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